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Sticky: PokéSun League & Showdown! Rules
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Sticky: PokéSun League & Showdown! Rules
Giovanni
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#11
03-09-2013, 12:38 AM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013, 12:50 AM by Giovanni.)
(03-08-2013, 10:47 AM)Cyborg Pride Wrote: Weather takes away a good chunk of the actual skill of battling, I think we can all agree there. Weatherless teams have more options for choices if you know that you're going up against another weatherless team, therefore more thought must be put into countering more threats than usual. This league is supposed to be about balance and skill, weatherless playstyles lend themselves to that better than any other.
well saying that it takes away skill cause you won't pick something else is like saying dark type takes away a chunk of skill cause you'll choose it over ghost types.
weather actually adds to it, you're supposed to be learn to take it on, just get a type that benefits from the weather that messes you up or get your own weather setter, it doesn't in any way take away skill or strategy.
and about this league being about balance and skill, weather is technically more balanced then attacks. it does the same amount of damage every time, has no critical hits. and it has 100% accuracy no matter what.


oh, and whats wrong with weather countering something? the move psychic really screws up gengar, a threat to psychic types, but we haven't banned that.

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#12
03-09-2013, 04:51 AM
No, it's really not like saying that. Last time I checked, Dark-types weren't unbalanced and metagame-defining. Nothing changes the metagame like weather has, so that comparison is rather redundant.

In a league where each Gym Leader has set rules and themes for their Gym putting them at a disadvantage when compared to ordinary players, allowing challengers to set up rain and just hit Surf on their Specs Keldeo isn't going to be fair at all. Again, you comparing weather effects to a damaging move is redundant, as they are not meant to fulfill the same purpose at all - attacks are a integral part of battles, weather is there to either buff or debuff them.

Listen, the Gym Leaders already give you a big advantage over them by sticking to whatever theme they explicitly tell you, and the only real rule they ask in return is to be up against a weatherless team - this is no different to just entering a Clear Skies tournament on any kind of PO server. If you have a problem with that system, maybe you should work towards your own Gym where you can set the rules - otherwise, stop your arguing and damn whining about a tiny rule and make a weatherless team, it's not hard. If you find yourself unable to comply with that simple rule - the only big one this League asks - then don't take part, simple.

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#13
03-09-2013, 01:46 PM
(03-09-2013, 04:51 AM)Cyborg Pride Wrote: No, it's really not like saying that. Last time I checked, Dark-types weren't unbalanced and metagame-defining. Nothing changes the metagame like weather has, so that comparison is rather redundant.

In a league where each Gym Leader has set rules and themes for their Gym putting them at a disadvantage when compared to ordinary players, allowing challengers to set up rain and just hit Surf on their Specs Keldeo isn't going to be fair at all. Again, you comparing weather effects to a damaging move is redundant, as they are not meant to fulfill the same purpose at all - attacks are a integral part of battles, weather is there to either buff or debuff them.

Listen, the Gym Leaders already give you a big advantage over them by sticking to whatever theme they explicitly tell you, and the only real rule they ask in return is to be up against a weatherless team - this is no different to just entering a Clear Skies tournament on any kind of PO server. If you have a problem with that system, maybe you should work towards your own Gym where you can set the rules - otherwise, stop your arguing and damn whining about a tiny rule and make a weatherless team, it's not hard. If you find yourself unable to comply with that simple rule - the only big one this League asks - then don't take part, simple.

"stop your arguing and damn whining about a tiny rule"
that was unnecessary, the first post asks for suggestions so don't be so rude when someone just comes in and asks for something to be changed. i'm not whining. arguing, a little, bare with me.

there are a lot of counters to specs keldeo, outspeed it, get a storm drain pokemon, set up a different weather, the point is, no team is invincible, an elite four member in B/W said it himself. weather can be compared just fine, why can it not? rain is like a swords dance except for water type moves, sandstorm and hail is like a burn almost (but doesn't lower attack).

"make a weatherless team, it's not hard." its also not that hard to make a weather team. i'd be very disappointed if what you're trying to say is that pokesun's gym leaders can't even deal with a simple game mechanic.

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#14
03-09-2013, 02:07 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013, 02:08 PM by Hana Song.)
Well, you are whining. I'm not saying it's "hard" to make a weather team - it's sure as hell easier than making a weatherless team - and I'm not saying that the Gym Leaders here are bad at teambuilding, how did you get that from what I said? I'm just saying, they have flexibility taken away from them by sticking to a theme - it doesn't seem like you understand exactly how much of a limitation that is - so in return all they ask is to be up against a team that means it's a fair battle, otherwise it would be pretty much entirely one-sided and, again, unfair.

It's not like the League bans weather teams anyway - Bordeaux's entire Gym revolved around weather - it's just that the leaders at the moment decide that they don't wish to battle those kinds of teams. Again, if you have a problem with that, don't challenge them.

The Gym Leaders on this forum are some of the best competitive minds I've battled, and for you, someone that doesn't even know me, to say that I'm directly insulting them is the truly disappointing thing here.

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#15
03-09-2013, 03:19 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013, 03:27 PM by Giovanni.)
(03-09-2013, 02:07 PM)Cyborg Pride Wrote: Well, you are whining. I'm not saying it's "hard" to make a weather team - it's sure as hell easier than making a weatherless team - and I'm not saying that the Gym Leaders here are bad at teambuilding, how did you get that from what I said? I'm just saying, they have flexibility taken away from them by sticking to a theme - it doesn't seem like you understand exactly how much of a limitation that is - so in return all they ask is to be up against a team that means it's a fair battle, otherwise it would be pretty much entirely one-sided and, again, unfair.

It's not like the League bans weather teams anyway - Bordeaux's entire Gym revolved around weather - it's just that the leaders at the moment decide that they don't wish to battle those kinds of teams. Again, if you have a problem with that, don't challenge them.

The Gym Leaders on this forum are some of the best competitive minds I've battled, and for you, someone that doesn't even know me, to say that I'm directly insulting them is the truly disappointing thing here.
first, i am not whining anymore then you are, i'm just stating facts and trying to have a factual argument rather then just falsely calling someone whiny and say they're wrong. this is a place to make suggestions, not to beat up on people for making them and say "if you don't like it, you don't have to participate!" this is trying to make the league a little better, because weather does add to the strategy.
now, that entire post was just putting words into my mouth, i did not say you were insulting them, i did not say you said the gym leaders are bad at team building, how in the heck did you get that?

"I'm just saying, they have flexibility taken away from them by sticking to a theme" exactly my point. weather does give a little more verity when making a team, this could benefit gym leaders as well.

"it's just that the leaders at the moment decide that they don't wish to battle those kinds of teams." um, that kind of destroys the whole purpose of battling. i don't like battling teams with fighting types that use close combat to take out most of my pokemon, does that mean i can just stop battling them? no, you work around it and prepare for it.
i really don't get how you think weather isn't fair, both teams have access to it so it is fair. period.

now, lets be respectful of each other, alright? and no more using the "you don't have to challenge them" argument, that's not what this is about, this is about what's best for the league.

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#16
03-09-2013, 03:44 PM
You assume I have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm not saying that weather as a playstyle is unfair, I'm saying in this league it is. I don't understand how you're getting to the point that using weather-based teams in the league adds strategy, it does the opposite. Going against a themed team with a weatherless means that you can't spam Hydro Pump or Thunder to win, which is what would happen if challengers were able to use rain teams.

Again, I raise the point that Bordeaux's Gym was a weather Gym, it's just the case that the moment that the Gym Leaders do not allow them - now that may change in the future, but as it stands now, those are the chosen rules by the people in charge of the league.

No, that doesn't destroy the "whole purpose" of battling, that's a stupid over-exaggeration. It's not going to add variety, it's just going to mean the league goes the same way as the OU metagame - weather teams everywhere, lessening the need for "skill".

Allowing weather teams is not what's best for the league, I don't understand how you can think that. Weather unbalances metagames - OU is the perfect example where the "generic" rain team can still reign supreme despite being deathly predictable.

As for how I got you implying I disrespect the leaders here;
Quote:i'd be very disappointed if what you're trying to say is that pokesun's gym leaders can't even deal with a simple game mechanic.

As a journalist, distinguishing between fact and opinion is important. You say you would like a sensible debate based on facts, when all you are putting forward are your own opinions backing up your own claims. I suggest getting that in order before trying to make a case for something.

In any case, it's not as if weather teams are "banned" from the league altogether. Four Gym Leaders isn't a limit at all, there may well be a Gym Leader incoming soon that allows challengers to use teams utilising weather effects.

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#17
03-09-2013, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013, 04:20 PM by Giovanni.)
(03-09-2013, 03:44 PM)Cyborg Pride Wrote: You assume I have no idea what I'm talking about, I'm not saying that weather as a playstyle is unfair, I'm saying in this league it is. I don't understand how you're getting to the point that using weather-based teams in the league adds strategy, it does the opposite. Going against a themed team with a weatherless means that you can't spam Hydro Pump or Thunder to win, which is what would happen if challengers were able to use rain teams.

Again, I raise the point that Bordeaux's Gym was a weather Gym, it's just the case that the moment that the Gym Leaders do not allow them - now that may change in the future, but as it stands now, those are the chosen rules by the people in charge of the league.

No, that doesn't destroy the "whole purpose" of battling, that's a stupid over-exaggeration. It's not going to add variety, it's just going to mean the league goes the same way as the OU metagame - weather teams everywhere, lessening the need for "skill".

Allowing weather teams is not what's best for the league, I don't understand how you can think that. Weather unbalances metagames - OU is the perfect example where the "generic" rain team can still reign .supreme despite being deathly predictable.

As for how I got you implying I disrespect the leaders here;
Quote:i'd be very disappointed if what you're trying to say is that pokesun's gym leaders can't even deal with a simple game mechanic.

As a journalist, distinguishing between fact and opinion is important. You say you would like a sensible debate based on facts, when all you are putting forward are your own opinions backing up your own claims. I suggest getting that in order before trying to make a case for something.

In any case, it's not as if weather teams are "banned" from the league altogether. Four Gym Leaders isn't a limit at all, there may well be a Gym Leader incoming soon that allows challengers to use teams utilising weather effects.
and i wish you would separate your opinion from facts. if you think you can just spam hydro pump and thunder to win, you're dead wrong. as i said before, the gym leaders would have access to weather too. i haven't assumed anything about you, you assume i have, that was all your thought, not mine. you're saying i'm only using my opinion and you're using facts, and then only state your opinion.

"No, that doesn't destroy the "whole purpose" of battling, that's a stupid over-exaggeration. It's not going to add variety, it's just going to mean the league goes the same way as the OU metagame - weather teams everywhere, lessening the need for "skill".

it isn't any exaggeration, you simply don't want to face a team that can beat you, so you think it should be banned. THAT is what is lessening the need for skill, my friend.

"Again, I raise the point that Bordeaux's Gym was a weather Gym, it's just the case that the moment that the Gym Leaders do not allow them - now that may change in the future, but as it stands now, those are the chosen rules by the people in charge of the league."

yes, cause having one gym being fair obviously makes up for one's that aren't fair. you just stated that -4 + 0 = 0 basically.no, it should be all zeros. nice and even.

"As for how I got you implying I disrespect the leaders here;
Quote:i'd be very disappointed if what you're trying to say is that pokesun's gym leaders can't even deal with a simple game mechanic.
"

i didn't state you disrespected them anywhere in that post, but that post still is true, you say weather would make it too hard and "unfair", a gym leader should be able to take on weather, i'v done gym leading before and i could always take on weather. when the opponent brings in ninetales with drought or politoad with drizzle, i brought in tyranitar. and even if you don't have the right type to set up weather by entry, that's what the moves are for.

"Allowing weather teams is not what's best for the league, I don't understand how you can think that. Weather unbalances metagames - OU is the perfect example where the "generic" rain team can still reign .supreme despite being deathly predictable."

no, just no, it isn't as invincible as you make it out to be. let me try to say this again AND I REALLY WANT YOU TO PAY ATTENTION THIS TIME. set your own weather, get a pokemon that benefits from that weather, outspeed the pokemon that benefits from that weather and knock it out. if you really can't do any of these and think that rain really makes pokemon as invincible as you make them out to be, competitive battling just isn't your thing.

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#18
03-09-2013, 04:34 PM
Kid, I'm not nearly as stupid as you're making me out to be. Spamming Water-type moves is essentially the gist of offensive rain teams. I didn't say I've been stating fact, find me where I said that.

Again, you're assuming I'm some kind of sub-par battler that lets a simple rain team walk all over me, which is rather insulting. I can beat rain teams, I can beat sun teams, whatever kind of weather or playstyle, it is possible to win against, I am simply saying that weather teams have no place here. Insulting my abilities? That's low, I'll be honest. I've not done that to you, so I really don't see why I deserve that coming from you.

I have no idea where you plucked those imaginary numbers from. Gym Leaders have a theme they have to stick to, and give you a good idea of what you are going to be facing - that's a disadvantage for them, -1 if you're insistent on using numbers for whatever reason - which inevitably means a good number of Pokémon from tiers lower than OU. The challenger is allowed to use all OU Pokémon, but forfeit weather effects - a -1 for the challenger. 0, "my friend".

I'm not doubting your abilities to battle against weather teams at all. I myself have been a Gym Leader in the past, and it is not a hard thing to do. That being said, these were situations where both parties have weather and not a huge disadvantage as these Gym Leaders do. Not that I'm saying anybody is lesser when compared to anybody else here, or anywhere else - I have no way of knowing that, therefore I do not say nor assume that.

No, I do not think weather is an invincible force, there are incredibly easy ways of tackling it - ways that may not be available to the Gym Leaders here. Again, I am not stupid. There is no need to capitalise anything you are writing, as I am reading every word and replying to them. Perhaps competitive battling is not my thing - this is not, however, something you have a right to decide based on words that I've not said and opinions that I do not have.

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#19
03-09-2013, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 03-09-2013, 04:53 PM by Giovanni.)
(03-09-2013, 04:34 PM)Cyborg Pride Wrote: Kid, I'm not nearly as stupid as you're making me out to be. Spamming Water-type moves is essentially the gist of offensive rain teams. I didn't say I've been stating fact, find me where I said that.

Again, you're assuming I'm some kind of sub-par battler that lets a simple rain team walk all over me, which is rather insulting. I can beat rain teams, I can beat sun teams, whatever kind of weather or playstyle, it is possible to win against, I am simply saying that weather teams have no place here. Insulting my abilities? That's low, I'll be honest. I've not done that to you, so I really don't see why I deserve that coming from you.

I have no idea where you plucked those imaginary numbers from. Gym Leaders have a theme they have to stick to, and give you a good idea of what you are going to be facing - that's a disadvantage for them, -1 if you're insistent on using numbers for whatever reason - which inevitably means a good number of Pokémon from tiers lower than OU. The challenger is allowed to use all OU Pokémon, but forfeit weather effects - a -1 for the challenger. 0, "my friend".

I'm not doubting your abilities to battle against weather teams at all. I myself have been a Gym Leader in the past, and it is not a hard thing to do. That being said, these were situations where both parties have weather and not a huge disadvantage as these Gym Leaders do. Not that I'm saying anybody is lesser when compared to anybody else here, or anywhere else - I have no way of knowing that, therefore I do not say nor assume that.

No, I do not think weather is an invincible force, there are incredibly easy ways of tackling it - ways that may not be available to the Gym Leaders here. Again, I am not stupid. There is no need to capitalise anything you are writing, as I am reading every word and replying to them. Perhaps competitive battling is not my thing - this is not, however, something you have a right to decide based on words that I've not said and opinions that I do not have.

again, putting words into my mouth, i never said you were stupid, i feel you think i am and will believe i actually said any of that.

"Again, you're assuming I'm some kind of sub-par battler that lets a simple rain team walk all over me, which is rather insulting. I can beat rain teams, I can beat sun teams, whatever kind of weather or playstyle, it is possible to win against, I am simply saying that weather teams have no place here. Insulting my abilities? That's low, I'll be honest. I've not done that to you, so I really don't see why I deserve that coming from you."

again, i never said that, you're assuming i assume things. let me let you in on a little secret, i'm not you, i won't automatically think what you think. which seems to be how you think it works. now, why do they have no place here? you give no reason. and if you can beat weather teams, and i can beat weather teams with only one type, why do you think the gym leaders can't? you even said they're some of the most brilliant battlers you've ever met.

"I have no idea where you plucked those imaginary numbers from. Gym Leaders have a theme they have to stick to, and give you a good idea of what you are going to be facing - that's a disadvantage for them, -1 if you're insistent on using numbers for whatever reason - which inevitably means a good number of Pokémon from tiers lower than OU. The challenger is allowed to use all OU Pokémon, but forfeit weather effects - a -1 for the challenger. 0, "my friend"."

so first, what? i don't even understand what you're saying in this part. and second, are you really going to put the word "friend" in quotation marks? you've decided i'm not worthy of being your friend because we're in an argument?
sheesh, where's iris when you need her?

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#20
03-09-2013, 05:03 PM
It's almost as if I'm supposed to read your incredibly demeaning capitalised sentence in a friendly way and not a way that makes it seem like I'm some kind of troglodyte in your eyes. How about stop painting me as some kind of horrible individual that's out to get at you and make you seem stupid, I am not like that.

The Gym Leaders here put themselves at more of a disadvantage than those that use mono-type teams. They tell you their entire teams, they set themselves nearly impossible limits as to what to choose, it's only fair that we, the challengers, sacrifice too in order to maintain fairness in battle.

You bring up some imaginary mathematics showing how weather effects are more important than the limits Gym Leaders place on themselves, claiming that I assume -4 + 0 = 0 (edited from -7 by the way, thank you very much - I am paying attention), therefore I make it obvious that I can do simple mathematics in return. We have never talked before, we are arguing, you mentioned the word "friend" first in what I can only assume - yes, I'm admitting that - was a sarcastic gesture. I reciprocate it.

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