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best ability for gengar?
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best ability for gengar?
Giovanni
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#21
06-06-2013, 03:41 PM
(05-28-2013, 06:06 AM)Windy Wrote: I think a Prankster Gengar with Substitute, Disable, Protect, and Toxic would be interesting. I've always wondered how Gengar would be used of he had Prankster. Obviously this set is more for defensive/stally purposes Smile

Sorry if I missed something, but Gengar is already quite fast, is it not? unless you're dealing with a choice scarf user, I don't see this set doing much.

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#22
06-07-2013, 08:21 AM (This post was last modified: 06-07-2013, 08:22 AM by medicham.)
(06-06-2013, 03:41 PM)Giovanni Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:06 AM)Windy Wrote: I think a Prankster Gengar with Substitute, Disable, Protect, and Toxic would be interesting. I've always wondered how Gengar would be used of he had Prankster. Obviously this set is more for defensive/stally purposes Smile

Sorry if I missed something, but Gengar is already quite fast, is it not? unless you're dealing with a choice scarf user, I don't see this set doing much.

(05-28-2013, 12:12 PM)Shock Wrote: Actually, I'm with Windy on this one, Prankster would be amazing for a SubDisable or SubSplit set. Shadow Ball for damage is a good move, though I don't understand why you're saying that a Gengar like the would fear Taunt at all - you're going to have priority, therefore able to set up Substitutes that can block Taunt. Even if the opposing Pokémon has Truant, you're most likely going to outspeed them anyway due to Gengar's high natural Speed. It could also give you scope against things that usually threaten Gengar with priority moves - Scizor, mostly.

Though if you want to go for an ability that is for pure offense, then I suppose Speed Boost or Adaptability could work? Speed Boost raising its already impressive Speed and allowing it to outspeed even more Scarfed threats, and Adaptability powering up Shadow Ball and being a good reason to use a Poison-type move - Poison isn't a great offensive move, but not much actually resists it, it has decent neutral coverage.

substitute plus pain split on Gengar with prankster is killer. you could easily steal HP and wall safely with an almost guaranteed set up because of prankster. Gengar is fragile but in this set that is no problem. going with speed and special attack and or HP benefits this set is freaking awesome. Gengar has excellent speed and special attack. making a great wall of China with uber speed. pain split will help you recover hp from substitute. while substitute protects you from just about everything and everything else you should be able to smash with special attack stab! then if all else fails you can add to the team with another beastly set up like this or even something that requires no set up. the possibilities are endless!

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#23
06-07-2013, 01:21 PM
(06-07-2013, 08:21 AM)gavisaurusrex Wrote:
(06-06-2013, 03:41 PM)Giovanni Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:06 AM)Windy Wrote: I think a Prankster Gengar with Substitute, Disable, Protect, and Toxic would be interesting. I've always wondered how Gengar would be used of he had Prankster. Obviously this set is more for defensive/stally purposes Smile

Sorry if I missed something, but Gengar is already quite fast, is it not? unless you're dealing with a choice scarf user, I don't see this set doing much.

(05-28-2013, 12:12 PM)Shock Wrote: Actually, I'm with Windy on this one, Prankster would be amazing for a SubDisable or SubSplit set. Shadow Ball for damage is a good move, though I don't understand why you're saying that a Gengar like the would fear Taunt at all - you're going to have priority, therefore able to set up Substitutes that can block Taunt. Even if the opposing Pokémon has Truant, you're most likely going to outspeed them anyway due to Gengar's high natural Speed. It could also give you scope against things that usually threaten Gengar with priority moves - Scizor, mostly.

Though if you want to go for an ability that is for pure offense, then I suppose Speed Boost or Adaptability could work? Speed Boost raising its already impressive Speed and allowing it to outspeed even more Scarfed threats, and Adaptability powering up Shadow Ball and being a good reason to use a Poison-type move - Poison isn't a great offensive move, but not much actually resists it, it has decent neutral coverage.

substitute plus pain split on Gengar with prankster is killer. you could easily steal HP and wall safely with an almost guaranteed set up because of prankster. Gengar is fragile but in this set that is no problem. going with speed and special attack and or HP benefits this set is freaking awesome. Gengar has excellent speed and special attack. making a great wall of China with uber speed. pain split will help you recover hp from substitute. while substitute protects you from just about everything and everything else you should be able to smash with special attack stab! then if all else fails you can add to the team with another beastly set up like this or even something that requires no set up. the possibilities are endless!

Hmm.. I think I want to try this out. So if Substitute and pain split get priority, are the speed EVs really necessary? Or are they just put there so he can outrun moves like Bullet punch and Aqua jet? I'll have to find out exactly how many EVs are necessary to outrun the common threats and put the rest in HP.

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#24
06-08-2013, 12:13 AM
(06-07-2013, 01:21 PM)Giovanni Wrote:
(06-07-2013, 08:21 AM)gavisaurusrex Wrote:
(06-06-2013, 03:41 PM)Giovanni Wrote:
(05-28-2013, 06:06 AM)Windy Wrote: I think a Prankster Gengar with Substitute, Disable, Protect, and Toxic would be interesting. I've always wondered how Gengar would be used of he had Prankster. Obviously this set is more for defensive/stally purposes Smile

Sorry if I missed something, but Gengar is already quite fast, is it not? unless you're dealing with a choice scarf user, I don't see this set doing much.

(05-28-2013, 12:12 PM)Shock Wrote: Actually, I'm with Windy on this one, Prankster would be amazing for a SubDisable or SubSplit set. Shadow Ball for damage is a good move, though I don't understand why you're saying that a Gengar like the would fear Taunt at all - you're going to have priority, therefore able to set up Substitutes that can block Taunt. Even if the opposing Pokémon has Truant, you're most likely going to outspeed them anyway due to Gengar's high natural Speed. It could also give you scope against things that usually threaten Gengar with priority moves - Scizor, mostly.

Though if you want to go for an ability that is for pure offense, then I suppose Speed Boost or Adaptability could work? Speed Boost raising its already impressive Speed and allowing it to outspeed even more Scarfed threats, and Adaptability powering up Shadow Ball and being a good reason to use a Poison-type move - Poison isn't a great offensive move, but not much actually resists it, it has decent neutral coverage.

substitute plus pain split on Gengar with prankster is killer. you could easily steal HP and wall safely with an almost guaranteed set up because of prankster. Gengar is fragile but in this set that is no problem. going with speed and special attack and or HP benefits this set is freaking awesome. Gengar has excellent speed and special attack. making a great wall of China with uber speed. pain split will help you recover hp from substitute. while substitute protects you from just about everything and everything else you should be able to smash with special attack stab! then if all else fails you can add to the team with another beastly set up like this or even something that requires no set up. the possibilities are endless!

Hmm.. I think I want to try this out. So if Substitute and pain split get priority, are the speed EVs really necessary? Or are they just put there so he can outrun moves like Bullet punch and Aqua jet? I'll have to find out exactly how many EVs are necessary to outrun the common threats and put the rest in HP.

ikr. this is just one combo that people have come up with. i have other combos as well and i am sure there are infinite combos you can do with abilities because there are so many Pokemon that can use the other abilities. i am afraid to battle now that this trick is out and that more experienced trainers will be able to use it better than i can and use more wicked combos

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#25
06-08-2013, 07:48 AM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2013, 07:49 AM by Hana Song.)
The most common priority users in the OU tier would most likely be Scizor, Abomasnow and Mamoswine (Breloom left out due to Gengar being immune to Mach Punch). Here's a short list of their most common sets, and the Speeds that they max out at.

Standard:
Spoiler:
[Image: 212.png]
Scizor @ Choice Band | Technician
Adamant | 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Bullet Punch | U-Turn | Superpower | Pursuit


Speed maxed out at 166.

[Image: 460.png]
Abomasnow @ Expert Belt | Snow Warning
Lonely | 252 Atk / 172 SAtk / 84 Spd | 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
Wood Hammer | Ice Shard | Hidden Power [Fire] | Earthquake


Speed maxed out at 176.

[Image: 473.png]
Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Icicle Crash | Ice Shard | Earthquake | Superpower


Speed maxed out at 284.

Gengar with priority through Prankster will be able to outspeed all of these without any Speed EVs at all, bar Mamoswine. With no EVs, Gengar reaches 256 Speed, a little shy of Mamoswine's 284. Since this set's looking to be aimed towards a set more suited to quickstall, and we're wanting to put more EVs into HP, there's only one way this can be done, since we cannot have a HP-beneficial nature. 16 EVs into Speed, and a Timid nature let us hit 286, outspeeding Mamoswine and giving us a whopping 240 EVs to put into HP.

However, that's not the most efficient EV spread at all. With those EVs and nature, it gives us a number of 321 in HP, 359 in SAtk, and 286 in Speed. Good enough, but we can do a lot better. An EV spread of 240 HP / 152 SAtk / 116 Spd with a Modest nature gives Gengar a Speed of 285, still enough to outspeed max/max Mamoswine, and a higher SAtk number, letting us hit even harder. HP remains at 321, a respectable number, and a number indivisible by four - I'm positive this allows us to potentially set up 4 subs and still have 1 or 2 HP remaining. Not that useful, but gives us some more survivability.

So, that's that, a decent enough set with the most efficient EV spread possible. Unless you want to cover obscure threats such as Scarf Scizor with this set, this looks like the best Prankster Gengar set you could be using.

[Image: 094.png]
Gengar @ Leftovers | Prankster
Modest | 240 HP / 152 SAtk / 116 Spd | 0 Atk
Substitute | Pain Split/Disable | Protect | Shadow Ball

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#26
06-08-2013, 02:14 PM
(06-08-2013, 07:48 AM)Shock Wrote: The most common priority users in the OU tier would most likely be Scizor, Abomasnow and Mamoswine (Breloom left out due to Gengar being immune to Mach Punch). Here's a short list of their most common sets, and the Speeds that they max out at.

Standard:
Spoiler:
[Image: 212.png]
Scizor @ Choice Band | Technician
Adamant | 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SDef
Bullet Punch | U-Turn | Superpower | Pursuit


Speed maxed out at 166.

[Image: 460.png]
Abomasnow @ Expert Belt | Snow Warning
Lonely | 252 Atk / 172 SAtk / 84 Spd | 30 Atk / 30 SAtk / 30 Spd
Wood Hammer | Ice Shard | Hidden Power [Fire] | Earthquake


Speed maxed out at 176.

[Image: 473.png]
Mamoswine @ Life Orb | Thick Fat
Jolly | 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Icicle Crash | Ice Shard | Earthquake | Superpower


Speed maxed out at 284.

Gengar with priority through Prankster will be able to outspeed all of these without any Speed EVs at all, bar Mamoswine. With no EVs, Gengar reaches 256 Speed, a little shy of Mamoswine's 284. Since this set's looking to be aimed towards a set more suited to quickstall, and we're wanting to put more EVs into HP, there's only one way this can be done, since we cannot have a HP-beneficial nature. 16 EVs into Speed, and a Timid nature let us hit 286, outspeeding Mamoswine and giving us a whopping 240 EVs to put into HP.

However, that's not the most efficient EV spread at all. With those EVs and nature, it gives us a number of 321 in HP, 359 in SAtk, and 286 in Speed. Good enough, but we can do a lot better. An EV spread of 240 HP / 152 SAtk / 116 Spd with a Modest nature gives Gengar a Speed of 285, still enough to outspeed max/max Mamoswine, and a higher SAtk number, letting us hit even harder. HP remains at 321, a respectable number, and a number indivisible by four - I'm positive this allows us to potentially set up 4 subs and still have 1 or 2 HP remaining. Not that useful, but gives us some more survivability.

So, that's that, a decent enough set with the most efficient EV spread possible. Unless you want to cover obscure threats such as Scarf Scizor with this set, this looks like the best Prankster Gengar set you could be using.

[Image: 094.png]
Gengar @ Leftovers | Prankster
Modest | 240 HP / 152 SAtk / 116 Spd | 0 Atk
Substitute | Pain Split/Disable | Protect | Shadow Ball

I am not sure how effective a Pokémon with scarf and priority moves would be against this strategy. Any Pokémon with a base speed over 56 and scarf could out speed Gengar. So I thought of an awesome way to make sure I can pacify those speedy priority users. It is quite simple and unfortunately easy to counter however; this will probably smash just about any scarf user (even speed form Deoxys with scarf). Paralysis can take advantage of the 999 stat cap (when using Mewtwo or Deoxys) making any Pokémon super slow long enough for Gengar to set up. Any abilities and items that prevent status effects and moves like protect and detect will counter this, particularly if the Pokémon has magic bounce to deflect taunt and thunder wave. Not to mention the Farfetch'd possibility of ability swapping and other prankster users which could be stopped by skill swap aided by magic bounce or something like that. Taunt helps to protect against move locking and other annoying effects.

It takes a speed stat of 504 with two increased stages in speed to out speed Gengar at its max speed stat, and 3 stages with a stat of 460. With taunt in use speed boost would probably be the only option. So it would take 2 or 3 turns for the fastest Pokémon on scarf and even more for those with scarf and with lower stats and that much more for those without scarf and lower speeds. For those without a priority move, stopping the set up in the first turn is nearly hopeless because of substitute. After using thunder wave an Alakazam with a speed stat of 372 can out speed anything with a speed of 991 and below, and is only out sped by something with a speed of 992 and above, while if Mewtwo uses thunder wave with prankster, it cannot be out sped unless its stats are reduced, which will be mostly blocked by taunt or something. Gengar’s stats are protected by substitute, which will last because of its partner slowing down everyone and blocking their moves and doing heavy damage where possible. Mewtwo, Alakazam and Deoxys already have great speed and can really help with the set up when using thunder wave. They probably don’t need prankster to use it unless facing a really defensive team, but their role is to simply get Gengar prankster and cause some havoc with thunder wave, taunt and other moves if necessary. If they fail then the Pokémon that had prankster as its initial ability will take over in the department of using taunt and thunder wave. That leaves Mewtwo, Deoxys or Alakazam with a psychic STAB move, which leaves them open to resisting types and weaknesses. However their role is not offensive so this is little consequence to the strategy. Not to mention the prankster user will have at least one (STAB) move that does at least neutral damage to bug, psychic, dark, ghost and normal types. This leads me to think the prankster user should be Thundurus which has a decent speed stat. I will go with an OU team because I am using Gengar. Gengar will not even have to worry about Ninjask after thunder wave is used. I have to watch out for bug type moves so the focus sash is a must for Alakazam and Thundurus should be able to cover any of the types Gengar and Alakazam can’t handle. Now that i think about it this could possibly work in uber since Gengar has low HP and a monstrous speed boost. Gengar could steal HP from uber Pokemon to fuel its substitute while Mewtwo or Deoxys pacify the other Pokemon. Gengar would not have to do a lot of damage but could certainly hold up against the titans long enough to wreak havoc with another powerful strategy. still Gengar with it's special attack could still do some damage.

i spent some time on this and i may be way off, close or right on. i don't even know anymore because i may have over thought a lot or a little or in some areas. maybe someday if i battle enough i could become great too

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#27
06-08-2013, 02:37 PM
I have no idea what you're talking about, how a paralysed Pokémon can outspeed something with 991 Speed, or even how something could realistically even get that fast anyway. Why does having Gengar at +4 even matter, that's not what this set's for, I thought we were talking about Prankster. I'm confused, you're bringing up all these random Pokémon and stats that won't happen, without any reason, what exactly are you talking about.

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#28
06-08-2013, 06:34 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2013, 06:46 PM by medicham.)
(06-08-2013, 02:37 PM)Shock Wrote: I have no idea what you're talking about, how a paralysed Pokémon can outspeed something with 991 Speed, or even how something could realistically even get that fast anyway. Why does having Gengar at +4 even matter, that's not what this set's for, I thought we were talking about Prankster. I'm confused, you're bringing up all these random Pokémon and stats that won't happen, without any reason, what exactly are you talking about.

It’s not the skill swap user on my team that is slowed down. It’s the other priority users on the opponent's team that I am using thunder wave on. I was just saying to make sure priority moves do not destroy Gengar's set up I could use thunder wave to slow them down big time, especially if the skill swap user is the one using thunder wave and obtaining prankster to pass on to Gengar. This slows down a lot of things but has its limits as well. Thunder wave can only cut speed down to a 4th and with scarf to 3/8. And for the fastest Pokémon like Deoxys and or Ninjask or anything fast enough with a boost from scarf and other things (like baton pass) would still have priority over Gengar after paralysis. Hopefully i will not have to worry about priority moves from Pokemon like that, but it is possible. Speed form Deoxys reaches 999 speed after using agility just once and Ninjask is also quite fast, holding an item that cures status problems and using protect it could also reach 999 speed. It would take two turns but it would certainly be able to wreak havoc with swords dance. Mewtwo or Deoxys could out speed just about anything after using thunder wave. The skill swap user is going to have to be a psychic type and is there to support Gengar for the most part and get Gengar prankster. The skill swap user or Pokemon prankster is being borrowed from may need to take advantage of prankster to slow down threats that out speed Gengar or are just deadly in General using thunder wave and or take them out. Alakazam seems to be the fastest in the OU tier that could definitely take advantage of this strategy. i just wish Alakazam had a maximum speed of 375 instead, then it could out speed 999 speed after using thunder wave as well. I want Thundurus on the team to keep threats out of the way and to get prankster to Gengar. The rest of the team would have to be whatever roles that need to be filled. That should cover support for Gengar.

anything with a base speed of 57+, max IVs in speed and max EVs in speed can be scarfed to out speed Gengar let alone speed boost or another stat move that will hopefully be blocked by taunt. i forgot to mention when prankster is borrowed from Thundurus skill swap will have +1 priority which can come in handy in tight spots where the focus sash may be needed.

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#29
06-08-2013, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2013, 07:46 PM by Hana Song.)
You realise how unlikely it is that somebody would even want to get anything up to that Speed, there's absolutely no point. Just because something is that fast, it doesn't mean that it can "wreak havoc with Swords Dance". I have absolutely no idea why you're worried about things with 999 Speed, that's just stupid.

I thought this thread was just us talking about some good theorymon sets that someone was going to PokéGen up, but you're talking about a Skill Swap-based team, something so gimmicky that it's just not going to work at all; and in the Ubers tier, even! This is a bad strategy even in OU, how is it going to work in Ubers!?

I cannot get over how pointless this thread just got for me.

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#30
06-08-2013, 08:22 PM
(06-08-2013, 07:43 PM)Shock Wrote: You realise how unlikely it is that somebody would even want to get anything up to that Speed, there's absolutely no point. Just because something is that fast, it doesn't mean that it can "wreak havoc with Swords Dance". I have absolutely no idea why you're worried about things with 999 Speed, that's just stupid.

I thought this thread was just us talking about some good theorymon sets that someone was going to PokéGen up, but you're talking about a Skill Swap-based team, something so gimmicky that it's just not going to work at all; and in the Ubers tier, even! This is a bad strategy even in OU, how is it going to work in Ubers!?

I cannot get over how pointless this thread just got for me.

you didn't see the beginning of the thread?

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